St. Maarten Private Eye

Don't worry I'm sure if they want more beach they can afford it.
I'm also sure they can control & set thier own high water line, that is in till the first big blow comes.
Like 1602 said why would they build a 120mill 5-star resort & have no beach.
It wouldn't make sense.

Are'nt you people concerned that the discussion surrounding the Dawn beach is not the fact that Westin can truck in sand or have sand dredged?
This was a large natural beach before, they have F*&^%$^d mother nature and will most probably have to screw with it again to get ready for their visitors.
This discussion is also about the residents and other hotel guests having public beach access as it is a public beach. People enjoyed the old Dawn beach. it was a lovely place, the beach was open to others, parking spaces were available. I have heard that there will be no parking spaces available in the resort area for persons wishing to visit the beach.

I also heard that parking will be up the hill close to the water tanks, will Westin be providing shuttle service to the beach for families wishing to picnic?
Or are we all to use the very narrow beach access space that is between Busby's and Ms.B's? and trek half a mile with picnic bags in tow?

I know many return visitors enjoyed Scavengers as it was an island like ribs shack, a very large beach to enjoy, no rush, no loud music, really caribbean.
If anyone knows the plans for parking to get to beach and what Westin will be providing, please let us know.

T

Next thing you know Devcon will be over with thier dredge putting it all back.
Or the boys with the heavy equipment will be trucking it in!

And you know what else. These developers did not leave one living thing in the whole property, not even a blade of grass. No joke. All gone, all destroyed, a whole ecosystem, I don't know the law in St Maarten but to me they are criminal and they won't be getting a penny of my money.

Disgusted

Lie 1. Proprty markers still located on edges of beach. Yellow poles as seen in "More photos". Beach has eroded a min. of 16 to 18 meters. Evidenced by all the previous photo's & the grass line can be seen running directly to the west of the dirt road & gray building.
Lie 2. Look @ previous photo's & the current grass line in relation to waterline.
Lie 3.The road is clearly where the grass was.
Get the facts straight if you are going to make accusations.

If it's any consolation which i'm sure it's not to many, after the $1mill irrigation systen goes in and several million $ worth of landscaping , with 100's of palm tree's ,plants,flowers,& many blades of grass you might feel just a little better!
All's I can say is look @ the old photo's , look @ the grass line, look @ the old photo's of the water line.
Before you start crying foul.
Happy DB'r

AND the laws of the island, perhaps his high paid lawyers can help him out. Heres a few straight facts for you.

From Roy Marlin:- Details of the permits - 26th May 2005

All buildings.....have more than a 50 meters setback to the waterline. The only part that does not comply ..... is the pool deck area which would have a 33 meter setback..

Yesterday, measurements were taken as the beach by the group visiting. Here are the figures.

The distance from the waters EDGE (not the top of the slope) to the edge of your "embedded road" was 17ft..

Your employee held the end of the tape where he said the wall would be and the distance was 33ft, they were even kind to you by stepping a couple of feet into the water.

Let me see now, 33 meters is 108ft.

Even if you add your so called eroded beach, the ful 18 meters (59ft) then you are still 24ft over your line. And that is to the water itself and the wall you plan to build.

And let me tell you something more. You do not need to be a marine specialist, (but several have confirmed it) to know that the reef not only protects the beach but keeps the sand situation fairly stable, ANY person who knows Dawn Beach knows this. The beach there NEVER erodes more than 15 - 20 ft and that is being generous to you, except perhaps in a Hurricane, but you will find this out yourself, or your clients will.

Let me give it in simple terms you can understand.

We will have pictures up soon of what the beach used to look like over the years, and we invite readers to submit them or email them to sxmpemail at gmail dot com. I know you are talking out of your backside and we are going to prove it to you.

Your employees would not say it on camera, but they stated that Billy Boy thinks he "Owns" the beach. It has been reported that Peyton Cromwell told Billy Boy that her could do what he wanted. He is about to be given a reality check.

Not only should our authorites put an immediate stop on your project and investigate the distance and permit conditions, but also take a good look at the public access issue, now and for the future.

Your employee stated that you ask people to use the Buzby side of the beach because you end it too dangerous. You are required to not only provide safe passage to the beach but also should shouldn't be on it making it unsafe.

Local Hero

Cupecoy, a beach in which thousands of tourists took photos, returned year after year to that beach has been destroyed by development. Now Dawn Beach is being destroyed as well. Have any VIP government officials actually spent a day off on the beach. I doubt it. If they were beach goers they would know why the tourists really travel to SXM. How stupid this all is. What is an ebbed road anyway? The only one I know is on Daytona Beach, Florida. Who wants to sit on a beach with an ebbed road running through it. What are people thinking? This is so beyond belief, the only thing I can do is stop the next two from doing this. Stop Aquarius and Constellations!

As for beach erosion. Here is a link to another picture of this beach and it is clear to see that the beach on this picture is much narrower than on the one posted above. Apart from that I do not believe there would have been a fifty meter setback. I could imagine it being feet but not meters. Besides you got your info from a newspaper article and have not actually seen the permit. Lay-out of the project would have been in the drawings that were submitted for the building permit and from that it would be clear, that a fifty meter setback, especially towards the northern end of the beach would have rendered big parts of the property non-usable and it would also have been clear that the so-called 50 meter margin was in no way observed. Figure it out.. I agree with another poster that it would be good to get your facts straight, as well as this building-permit or other permits is concerned.

As for the beach itself: it seems hard to imagine that a hotel, that advertises itself as a beach-hotel would destroy or render unusable the very beach it is situated on. That seems kind of outrageous to me.

In the old project, the little "villa's" used to be right smack bang on the beach, from where the beach would slope down towards the water. I can remember times that especially at the southern and northern end of the beach, there used be hardly any or no sand and/or beach at all, just pebbles or the water lapping at the steps of the structures..

Beach erosion does take place in this area, especially during north-eastern ground swells, such as we had a couple of weeks ago. In fact the beach became a lot narrower within the time of one day. After some time the beach comes back again as the sea and waves bring in the sand. I regard this as normal: the width of a beach is not engraved in stone, since we are talking about a "living" thing.

In the old Dawn Beach Hotel, the beach bar, used to be on the beach, and sometimes the front (sea side) used to have the water lapping at the steps, and at other times the beach would be immensely wide such as on your picture above.

As for Red Pond beach: there used to be none until some 10-12 years ago, but since then the beach has steadily been becoming wider and wider. No idea what caused that, but I would imagine, that such a beach could disappear again.

Observer1602

I beleive yours to be one of the most intelligent post's I've read here today.
I applaud your approach & spin on this subject, & I'm sure further investigation's will revel the truth of the matter.

Many more pictures at HeliPhotoCarib

Sorry, but Dawn Beach does not erode 16 - 18 meters. You claiming it does is like Roy Marlin claiming there was never a natural pond there, another lie. Before the previous hotel was built there was a large marshy area that turned into a pond after heavy rains. It was not a pond in the way Red Pond is a pond so therefore was not significant enough to be noted on maps. Two old residents of St. Maarten have assured me of this, this is before there were any roads there.

Now, let me try again to bring your attention to the facts because you don't seem to want to address them. 17ft and 33ft.

The 16-18 meters you claim is actually irrelevant, the high water mark is the highest place the water naturally reaches. As you can see, it naturally reaches where it does, 17ft away from a 3ft 'embedded' road and 33ft from where Westin plan to put a wall. 33ft is just a little different than 108 ft dont you think? Even your 16 - 18 meters doesn't cover it.

You are right, the beach does erode a little at the ends, nowhere near the amount these people are saying though. Wherever the water comes to, be it pebbles, walls, rocks, sand. That is the high water mark, it's why it is called the high water mark.

As for quoting from a newspaper article, yes, there are several with much the same info, quoted from ROY MARLIN himself. You will be happy to know we will have a copy of their permit up here in the next day or so, it may help refresh Westin what it say's, they appear to have lost theirs.

Hello Observer 1602, welcome back.

Flipper

Flipper,

It should be possible to take another picture like the "Jean Jarreau" copy-righted picture above, where this new grey building and sea wall situation could be seen, from inside Dawn Beach Estates. At least there would be a reference point and that is the building under construction.

Please note, that the high water mark is the line on the beach where the sea-weed is deposited. You can clearly see that at the northern and southern end, the situation is as I described.

Waiting for that picture..... it should not be that hard to get.

Observer1602

1602 why wait for the photo, get your camera out and take a few, or is there a reason you don't want to be seen taking the pictures?

Gracie,

I agree I could go out and take those pictures and therefore most likely will make time for that tomorrow. I will send them to the email address provided here something something at gmail, causing I aint advanced enough to post them on the web myself.

Observer1602

Observer,

You can post photos here very easily, but you do need to sign in. All you need for that is an email address, something also easy to get anonymously from yahoo or hotmail. Once signed in you can upload photos, they will need to be moved or linked to the right place by an editor, but you can also put them in your posts by using a short piece of code. The instructions are here.

Or just email them and one of us will put them in for you. sxmpemail at gmail dot com

I want to make a small challenge here to anyone brave enough. Walk down Dawn Beach with a camera and start taking photos, better yet get a video camera and start record before you step on the beach. Then come tell us of your experience. If Westin were so sure about what they are doing then why would they have people come rushing out in an aggressive manner every time they see someone with a camera?

Oh, and just a note for all readers. The post header uses a question mark. This discussion is really about if they are or not, some say yes, some not sure, some say no. Please keep the discussions civilized, intelligent and based on facts or clear observations you have. It's all very well to call CS and Wesitn 'arrogant environmental criminals' who have every intention on keeping the beach as 'local free' as they can, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's when opinions get stated as facts that problems can occur, it's difficult, I'm sure I've done it too, just try to be objective please.

We can all be more informed when the the right govt .people go over to take offical measurements and when the local press reports it to us. One wonders if they are even asking about it.

So far we have never had to ban anyone and we have never had to delete or refuse comments, lets keep it that way. Good to have you all here.

Flipper

Observer 1602,

Let me ask you something? have you walked down the Dawn beach lately?
You state that with the old buildings, the bar and the villas were on the beach.
Have you seen where their pool, a pool house or some structure is now? the pool is way out on the beach, very close to the water line.
The old boundery of the hotel was way back, although I don't have th emeasurements, I can tell you that the old site and the new site of buildings do not correspond with the same bounderies.
To my eyes, the pool is sticking out way beyond their bounderies.
I do hope Flipper can get old photos with the natural pond and new pictures with the pool construction.
I must say that lower down at the end part of the beach, I did notice that some beach vegetation was still visible, which is good news, as the sand will not erode in that part too much. However what is disturbing is how much beach, public beach that is, will be left for the public to use as recreation. Anyone, and I challenge any local who knew the old Dawn Beach, to go take a look and judge for yourself, it is clear to the naked eye.
While I can understand the contractor in the video saying his job is to make sure that the construction is safe -I do not understand why a truck is driving around so close to the water, if they have to get to buildings, why don't they use the areas to the back?
And I would like to know how does Westin, Columbia Sussex explain the washing of the cement mixer in the ocean? These people think we are stupid village idiots? So if they are capable of washing cement mixers in the Atlantic Ocean, aren't they capable of being one of the worst environmental offenders?
Observer 1602, are you now working for Westin? Have you become their local propoganda person? Where were you when Joan Verwoord was going through the mess with Peyton/Coral Shore?

I cannot think of any Dawn Beach resident, including the owner of the Princess Heights that is happy with the way that WESTIN is developing.
WESTIN could have been a beautiful project, where nature and hotel guests could have lived harmoniusly. But you obsever 1602 are happy to defend these people and come with a spin? Boy oh boy talk about traitors to our local society.

Well lookie here, anon, you draw some rapid conclusions here, on what, I do not know nor understand. All I am urging is that before someone is attacked that people have their facts straight. Making an assertion based on a newspaper article is flimsy to say the least unless you have also seen the other paperwork involved. If not, you could call it mere speculation.

I wonder by the way if you have ever contributed more to the environment than paying lipservice to it. Talk is easy huh? As you do not know who I am I would be careful in making assessment of people's motivations to write certain things. I have made my mark already, but choose to stay anonymous for my own reasons.

I used to go Dawn Beach every weekend before Luis, and I quite well know how the place used to be. I could even draw it out for you if I had to. But fortunately there is no need for that. There are ample pictures showing where the old restaurant building used to be, what the beach used to look like in those days, and more if you care to have a careful look.

Oh and sure Princess Heights owners are surely not pleased with the development, because for a long time they sort of could "advertise" Dawn Beach as their own beach. Are you now in cahoots with those owners? That is just as stupid a conclusion as you make.

I have no patience with people that can not stand opinions that dissent from their perceptions. To be concerned with the environment is one thing, to want to dictate to others what to say, write or think, lest they be labeled, is a totally different matter.

If things are wrong they are wrong. The final facts will tell. What sanctions there would be in this event I have no idea, but I have a good idea it will be none. Such are the powers that be.

And if it comes down to "traitors"..... who is letting these people do what they want? Me, you, or the powers that be on this island? I guess you should start considering as a local whom you vote for next time....

Observer1602

How long you lived here?

Let me tell you a story of some people who went over there taking pictures. The people working for Westin took out a camera and started taking pictures of THEM.

Now why would they do that?

You think it's so they can identify the 'troublemakers'? You think these people are nice people? You think Roy, Tochie, Frankie, etc. are nice people?

You are quite right, it should be simple to go and take pictures, measurements etc and get the facts verified. But you know what, first of all I don't want to have my car hit in some bizarre accident with a dump truck, nor do I want Rednecks or Thugs knocking on my door in the middle of the night.

You know why they media hasn't covered this? Because they are afraid. I'm not speculating with this statement.

Besides, it is not my job. It is the job of VROM, Kadaster, ROB and govt departments to be checking on these things. Isn't it?

(As for the copywrite photos, I linked them from their site and also put a link to their site encouraging people to go and look at many more. If they have any sense they will be happy for the traffic, if not then I'm sure they will let me know and I will remove them, and the link to their site of course. )

Flipper

How long I have lived here? Let us keep it at "long enough to know". It kind of seems strange to me, that you would not be able to take a picture from the Dawn Beach Estates area of the buildings in question, then compare it with other pictures from before, and do measurements on the pictures themselves. At least it would help.

As for you fear, that seems kind of overdone to me, since only a few days ago Dwight Barran et al walk onto the beach, take pictures, take measurements and even film (video) the whole thing. Obviously these people were not scared.

Still want to get back to that 45/50 meter issue, because if that is true that building plan should have never been approved with the lay-out that it has, because a lot of construction is well within that range, and has been from the beginning, whether the beach eroded or not. And if you should take Roy Marlin's words or utterings as truth is a totally different question altogether. It somehow baffles me tho, that someone would impose a building set-back from an ever shifting high-water mark. It just does not make sense. Or it must have been cause by the fact that the beach was measured into that particular Certificate of Admeasurement, as well as a part of the sea. But that is a different matter which I would not even want to touch right now.

Hopefully soon we shall see what the building permit says (altho I question that it would be in there). I would have rather been looking for the planning permit, which these people should have received prior to making building-plans. In a development at Guana Bay the government imposed a 15/20 meter no building zone taken from where the vegetation ended landinwards (which could clearly be marked on the existing Certificates of Admeasurement). I guess something similar is the case over here and it would be easy to superimpose such on a kadastral map and then project the present development thereon. If necessary use Google Earth, which has a good outline of the project.

Should government have inspected what is going on and still goes on. Of course they should, but it may have come to your attention that they are only looking where they want and not where they don't want. Any idea how come? I have one, but will keep it to myself.

At any rate, this whole development, just like Coral Shore "villa's" is hideous and ugly and looks like an american implant into a beatiful Caribbean island. A waste and a shame, but I guess some will say, that is the price of progress that we locals are paying through our noses, not only there in Dawn Beach, but elsewhere on the island also.

And as "for proof is in the pudding" we shall have to see the finished product. I am just hoping these people will fix back the roads they damaged extensively during construction.

Observer1602

And that is always a good thing, to know that it's just a few things we disagree on and most can probably be rectified with a govt that does it's job. Then there wouldn't be this sort of situation.

I agree, I could probably go by Dawn Beach Estate and take a photo, but there is also the catch that I don't have a camera at this moment. It's mentioned over in the donations pages somewhere, about what donations would be used for. Ideally I'd like to get one that takes videos too. Still, if you've been here long enough you know why I and other writers keep themselves anonymous.

Anyway, just as a notice, there will be no weekly update this week, sorry but family time takes precidence this evening. There will be a couple new items up tonight though, DBPrincess has a funny new story almost ready and Fuzz Buzz has a small item to finish off too.

I may check in late tonight, but the others know how to publish comments and keep you company.

Flipper

I have been doing some investigative work and have actually seen a copy of the (proposed) planning permit which states in effect, that any building shall be at least 45 meters from the COASTLINE. The term high-water mark is not used.

As one might remember the original Certificate of Admeasurement for this property comprised the development, the entire beach and even some of the adjoining waters. The description in that document says that the coast-line is the boundary. Let that sink in for a minute.

Good…. The setback was actually drawn into the site-plan using the eastern boundary of the Certificate of Admeasurement as a point of reference and when that is put in a drawing one shall see that all structures (even this new gray structure) are sufficiently far enough away from this coast-line (cadastral boundary).

It is only recently that the Certificate of Admeasurement was corrected, and now has the eastern boundary coinciding with the vegetation line, which is also visible in some of the drawings.

Observer1602

VROM, Kadaster and ROB should all go over there and measure things out. Then we will know what the story is.

I look forwards to it.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a wall inside one of those there construction office trailers with photos of the 'trouble makers'. These people are bullies, I think probably much worse, they must be squeezing Roys balls quite hard over this.

Voodoo

No doubt, the plans were designed from the kadaster's measurement's.
The kadaster's high water line at the "time of the survey "would diiffently overrule any present visual water line today.
People running out with thier camera's & tape measure's crying foul and this is the "High Water Line" look utterly rediculous.
Where did Local Hero get his surveying degree out of a bubblegum machine?
Maybe you are to "F"n close.

Your lost --Not my employee, Nor do I work for CS !
I only base the my facts on pure observation of the grass line in previous photo's & of the grass line directly west of the grey building.
Wow I've seen 16 to 18 meters a beach dissappear @ Red Pond in a matter of days.
I quess they don't have a reef out there so that area should be of no concern to you .

ok, this dude is clueless alright.
Beach dissappear @Red Pond? dude Red Pond is a Pond.
not a beach.
Gibbes Bay is a beach.
Gibbes bay does not have beach erosion as of 16-18 meters, Gibbes Bay still has the original sea grass, and beach vegetation like sea grapes trees. Reason why it is a popular turtle nesting area.
Now, maybe what you red necks thought was a beach is Red Pond, Red Pond does dry up in the warmer season. I too saw the Dawn Beach lately and there is very little sand left for residents to sit on in front of your property.
Why do we want to sit in front of your property???? Because all beaches are public! Would like to hear the nancy story Roy Marlin told you guys, but here it is again, all beaches are public beaches!

Please excuse me if I take that with a grain of salt.

You are talking to someone who has been using both Dawn Beach and Gibbs Bay for over 20 years. 16 - 18 meters at Gibbs bay would put the sand on top of the reef which is that distance off shore. In all the years going there, this has NEVER happened and the same principles apply there too.

Really dude, you are making yourself look silly.

Now, about those measurements, you know, the facts?

You base your facts (eh?) on observation on the long distance photo, I base my opinion on measurements taken with a tape measure and documented information.

Try again....

Hmm , Since the conch population seems to rise after heavy swells, landside of the reef I'm sure it must be impossible for the sand to be carried out over the reef.
Maybe those conch just walked over the reef to bask on the beach.
Granted the reefs do slow the process.
But never say never.

Occationally you will find a dead one in the rocks between the reef and beach, broken up. most are very old and they are probably a result of Hurricanes. Have you been here long? Do you remember Hurricane Luis? Luis is the reason Westin has the land to build on in case you didn't know.

Yes, it is possible, in extremes for sand to wash out over the beach, but not likely for it to wash in. I have snorkled out there many times and it drops off quite fast with little sand.

You are contradicting yourself. If the beach washes away so much then you should be even further back to take it into account.

Never in 25 years have I seen this.

Can we get back to the facts?

17t and 33ft.

Over the last few years I've watched the local "indigenous" people head to the water.
They seem to be aware of this fact of the heavy swell's/surf.
And I have witnessed many conch coming out with them on several beach heads.
Maybe were not watching our beach's as closely as you think.

And what you are saying about 16-18 meters is complete garbage, on either beach. Perhaps you are confused with Maho?

And like LH says, even if your fantasy was true, you are still at least 24ft over your line. That's the wall, not the road. The road is where the sand used to be, not the grass or seagrape trees. No doubt in my opinion, none at all.

Perhaps you think you are dealing with stupid people here?

Flipper

Now WWRoads dumping that cement bucket in the water is diffently a crime & they should be fined! Caught red handed.
A picture could be worth a 1000 words or 1000's of dollars

Who owned this property before the construction began?

The son of the inventor of Wang Computers bought the Dawn Beach hotel property after Hurricane Luis. The company was sold in 1999 to Getronics N.V.

Starwoods C.E.O. has resigned and there are rumors of a buyout of the Starwood Company. Starwood sold 33 hotels last year for 3.6 billion dollars and has 14 hotels on the market. Starwood shares surged this month because of a buyout speculation, rising to $67.82 a share. Dawn Beach was sold to a Big Corp. that has NO loyalty, to it's self or the beautiful people of SXM.

Starwood does not OWN the real estate that houses The Westin St. Maarten Dawn Beach Resort & Casino (what a mouthful). The land and structures on that particular lot (or lots) is owned by Columbia Sussex (see www.columbiasussex.com) which is a private company owned by Mr. William Yung (CEO & President) with head quarters in Kentucky (USA). Many of his family members hold key positions in the company.

So it does not really mean anything for Westin Dawn Beach that Starwood is being bought out. Maybe they will switch "brands" e.g. become a Sheraton Dawn Beach for instance. There are however rumors flying around that Columbia Sussex has put the hotel up for sale. That would not be a surprise as the property is giving management & owners major headaches: bad construction is leading to rapid deterioration of the property structure (mainly due to rust problems), rumor has it that Columbia Sussex is not getting the property insured against hurricane damage mainly because of the flimsy drywall used for both inside and outside (!!) walls and its location so close to the water and not having a proper retention pond, the Westin Residences timeshare units not selling at all, staff & members of management leaving due to bad & offensive management styles that is customary within Columbia Sussex.

Anyone / any company considering to buy this hotel would seriously need to think twice or twenty times for that matter.....

Even Peyton Cromwell gets fired.
yep even that POS couldn't sell anything there.