St. Maarten Private Eye

About the turtles: when I attended elementary school, I sometimes heard kids talk about how they had been so lucky in finding turtle-eggs on the beach and how they had prepared them for dinner and had had a wonderful meal out of it. I was horrified and tried to get my classmates to understand that what they had done was very cruel and also, that the defenseless turtles are an endangered species; I found myself alone. No one shared my view and all I got were angry faces. The teacher later told me that I was wrong to say something about their turtle-egg-eating-tradition. I didn't know what to do; was I really wrong? I couldn't believe it, so I decided to remain mute whenever again I would hear such a story.
I still find it a stomach turning tradition and don't think it belongs in a civilized world.

NB: this was only six years ago.

We can not really compare the consumption of turtle-eggs with cock-fighting, because turtles are an endangered species and cocks aren’t. One offers you pleasure/entertainment and the other a meal, so it’s hard to compare the two. But they do have some things in common, like the intolerable cruelty involved and that they are both completely dispensable and uncivilized.
So, therefore the government ought to forbid these acts of cruelty towards animals by law.

We are comparing SLAVERY...slavery mind you, of human beings, to a bunch of chickens?!?! Argue as much as you want in defense of the cocks, whatever floats your boat. But using comparisons to slavery and slave owners is down right insulting to me as a black person. You are equating the value of a chicken to that of a human being. Insulting. Cockfighting is part of my cultural past. I remember my grandfather and uncles breeding and fighting them every sunday afternoon. Then, if the specimen was not in terrible shape, my grandfather wrung its neck, chopped off the head and neighbors and everybody gathered in the back yard for a cook out. Ahh French Quarter in those days. Now some of you might see this as cruel, more power to you. But I'm willing to bet that most St. Maarteners, don't give a hoot cause as much as you despise it, it forms part of my cultural past. And I DO NOT want to change it. So I agree with Louie 100%.

J. Baptiste

Comparing the cultural acceptance of slavery and cockfighting is perfectly valid to this debate, but equating them would not be - which as far as I can see, nobody did, except Mr Baptiste.

Slavery has been a cultural tradition in all civilizations (including black African ones) since recorded history and only profound humanist thinkers rationalized against it at the time- the rest of society accepted it as perfectly normal.

This, of course, did not make it right.

Thankfully most of the world has now moved on and human slavery is rightfully regarded as an abomination and few would argue for its cultural preservation ( though sadly there are still exceptions to this in Asia and Africa)

Deliberate cruelty to animals for nothing but sport and pleasure, whilst paling in significance against doing the same to humans, also belongs to another age, the dark ages of mans' evolution.

In my opinion, there is nothing for Messrs Laveist or Baptiste to be culturally proud of in protecting the right to seek pleasure and profit from inflicting cruelty on defenseless creatures - and that applies from the bear-baiting of the Middle Ages to the cock fighting in Middle Region.

And lets not forget the illegal dogfighting which we all know goes on - and I wonder what position do messrs Baptiste and Laveist take on this particular cultural tradition?

Le Grenouille

You surprise me Baptiste. There is no comparison between chickens and people and trying to twist the content of the blog in the manner you do above does yourself a disservice. I think you know very well that Fuzz Buzz does not compare the two and your claim of being insulted is weak and false. There is no comparison, it is about things that people call 'Cultural' and how they are not always things we should hang onto and should instead let go.

Did you not read the link in the blog about the connection between cruelty to animals and cruelty to humans and anti-social behavior? If you like I can do a search for you and list another dozen or so links to information about this and we can discuss it if you like.

Flipper

I beg to differ Flip. With all due respect, I think your comment was a twist to steer to convo clear of a discussion you don't want. When people write to make a point, they draw comparisons to make said point. Fuzz mentions a number of comparisons (bullfightig, slavery et al) to make his or her point. It's rather slick to say that he or she wasn't comparing. Riight. The part that insulted me was the comparison or even mere mention of slavery in the same sentence, breath or blog as cockfighting. It's a far-fetched comparison to make. Furthermore, the connection between cruelty to animals and human beings is a THEORY that not every human being fits into. My grandfather and father and uncles were loving, devoted husbands and fathers. You speak in generalities and that's unfair. They fought cocks, were not violent men, served as community workers and civil servants of both sides of the island. So I do not relate to any type of connection between your so-called cruelty to chickens. I'm confident that most indeginous sxm'ners don't either and therefore I was insulted. I present to you a different perspective you should think about. I understand however that people who talk about issues concerning sxm culture get uncomfortable and defensive when their position is challenged by a sxm'ner who is firm enough to say hey, I like this part of my culture just fine. And i'm insulted that you dubbed that as false and weak. Can you relate to what I explained? No you probably can't. So how are you blessed with the ability to determine what I felt was weak or false? You can't broad-stroke a person simply because you are of one mind-set and she is of the other. That is not the way a discussion works. You should instead try to "get" what the other person was saying. You dissapoint me in this regard. If you don't want the discussion to "go there" say so. Simply say JB, lets try focus on cock-fighting and not deviate. But you know what the problem is in THIS instance? Writers should be extremely careful how they use socially, culturally and racially sensitive subjects as examples. When you do that, for some people, yours truly included, I will take it out and point out that its down-right insulting and inappropriate to use such a reference. And I stand by that.

Cockfighting is illegal in the USA, and it is a felony in 35 states. Besides being cruel to animals, cockfighting is closely connected to other crimes, even homicide. The presence of young children at cockfights is an especially disturbing element. Exposure to such brutality can promote insensitivity toward animal suffering and enthusiasm for violence. While it is true that cockfighting has been practiced for centuries in various countries, including the United States, "old" does not necessarily mean right or even acceptable. At one time the United States refused women the vote.

Not sure if thats the right word to use, but it sounds right to me. There are thousands of things that could be listed as having been cultural or traditional that we no longer have or do, because we have learnt better. It's called progress and enlightenment Mr Babtiste.
I would like to hear what the churches have to say about inflicting cruelty and suffering to God's creatures. I suspect they will say nothing because most of the pastors want us to stay in the dark ages and most of them have their head where the sun don't shine. Still, I would like to see the SMURFS get asked about it. I have a very very low opinion of those who get 'entertainment' from watching cruelty, pain and suffering of animals.

LH

So now the next time you are in Simpson Bay and see the "boaties" and other foreign nationals fishing off the Simpson Bay bridge, bucketing the fish and taking them back to the boats to cook and eat, make sure you stop and chastise them for being cruel to animals. Make sure you tell them we've "progressed" past all that.

J. Baptiste.

In God's big plan he made man superior, expecting him to take care of all those lesser creature's God put on this earth. Do you really think he expected you to tie razor blades on their ankles and put them in an arena so they could rip each other apart for your entertainment? Or are you one of those that don't give a damn what God's plan was? I don't think so and I think you know better. Fisherman fishing for fish to eat is okay, but in the name of a sport competition, I don't think so. To kill for food is one thing but to kill for fun is man's greatest crime. In the name of civilization, always keep your mind open to the challenges that make us a better society. The greatest law Is to "respect all life". Cockfighting is cruel and there are less harmful ways to entertain ourselves. Find one will ya??????:)

What I said: "I have a very very low opinion of those who get 'entertainment' from watching cruelty, pain and suffering of animals."

I neglected to include the word 'unnecessary' cruelty, pain and suffering.

I think I should tell you that I am not a vegetarian, I eat meats and fish. Not as much as I used to though and when I buy it I try to always buy fresh local fish or meats that are relatively organic and not factory farmed. Your argument is very similar to that made by some when the Dolphinarium was being planned, that those opposing the plans should also be seeking to close down the zoo and should be vegetarian. Those people didn't understand that the issue was about exploitation and causing unnecessary suffering.

I fish too, or used to, and when I caught a fish I planned to eat I wacked it over the head and put it out of its suffering as quickly as I could, I did not leave it to suffer and drown in the air. I eat chicken too, my grandmother used to raise them and she wrung their necks and cooked them for us too. Again, there was no prolonged suffering or pain inflicted upon that animal.
You make very poor arguments Baptiste. Can you really not feel some disgust at those who get pleasure (and profit) from making living creatures suffer pain? I guess we both differ there huh?

Again, about the slavery racist thing.

Do you see the link now? How the same arguments to defend something bad before get used time and time again. The wisdom is in knowing what is worth hanging onto culturally and what is not. Cockfighting is not in my humble opinion. You are free to differ but I will continue to present and push for what I believe too.

LH

PS, I happen to know Fuzz Buzz and their family is mixed, that person is not racist in the slightest and I'm sure they are sorry you got offended. But I suspect that much of that indignation and insult you claim to feel is self inflicted by you taking the wrong perspective on the argument presented. Again, that calling something cutural or traditional does not mean it is good or that we must tolerate it's continuance.

Sorry LH, I just don't feel anyway about cockfighting for entertainment. I do not feel a single iota of displeasure about it being used as entertainment. That, to use your words, is my humble opinion. Sorry. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Do I think some terrible abuse towards some animals is horrid, yes I do. But cockfighting isn't one of them. I think you guys miss my point. We are harping on how I feel and think about cruelty towards animals. This was not my central point. My point remains the COMPARISON between cockfighting and slavery. Nonsense! What makes my perspective wrong? Because its contrary to yours and Fuzz's and Flip's and whoever else. That doesn't make it wrong, hence the word perspective. I happen to think that my perspective is right. I also strongly believe using slavery as comparison to fighting chickens is downright insulting. The insult I feel is real. You cannot put human suffering, human slavery in the same context or sentence as fighting chickens. And to make the argument that I am taking it "from the wrong perspective" is disturbingly shallow. Do you think I would be the ONLY person who would read that and pull the piece of slavery out and feel insulted? Do you not see how using such a sensitive subject to make a point could overshadow whatever else a writer is trying to say? Then you might answer and say but it's how you take it". And you would be absolutely right. I took it as an insult to put slaves and chickens in the same context. In fact, lets do this, send this same story to The Daily Herald. Please send it through. Then watch to see the reactions. But then I suppose the many people who would be offended would be looking at it "from the wrong perspective" as well.

JB.

So your fish didn't suffer? Did the fish tell you that? So catching a fish and killing it right away isn't cruelty to animals? So fighting is cruel and killing is not? It's a convenient cop-out. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess LH.

Please READ:

http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=1266

http://www.bomanijones.com/blog/2005/08/12/peta-gets-it-all-wrong/

There is a great difference between killing for our food and killing for the sole pleasure of entertainment.
The Native American Indians had a great deal of respect for the earth, they realised that nature was valuable and should never be exploited. They killed just enough for their food, they would never over fish, over hunt and kill animals for pleasure.
Killing animals for pleasure is just downright terrible. Fishing just enough fish for our food is good. Pleasure fishing where they fish just for pleasure is cruel. I remember when pleasure fishing was a sport on SXM. Many of those that participated then don't do so anymore.
One of those well known men told me he will never do so anymore as he now realise that killing Marlins just for fun is cruel.
SXM is suffering from over fishing, we are catching more than we should and we do not have a Marine Protected Area allowing fish to breed to their natural size. The end result is that many are complaining that the fish at the markets nowadays are very small and not as tasty.
The local fishermen are not the ones contributing to this over fishing, but large vessels/trawlers from Asian countries and Guadeloupe come into our waters, and just clean out the ocean floor and everyhting in it at once. We also have a huge problem with Haitian fishermen that do not understand what the word sustainabilty means. They go out and clean the lagoon of ALL conchs, never leaving the small ones behind. Their own country is stripped of all trees so we need to make them understand that there is a sustainable way to fishing.
I have seen areas around the lagoon where these guys have smashed the conch shells leaving them in piles. My point remains that we should see a distinction between killing for pleasure and killing for food. And when we kill for food we should not over fish, and kill more than we need for our daily plates.